A big what The Red Army just had too many men and Germany didn’t have enough resources to fight a war on both that front and against the Anglo-Americans on the western front. The main point is that Hitler was a war monger intent on invading as much land as possible. The exact way of German failure is relatively irrevelant. USS Carronade (IFS-1/LFR-1) was a ship of the United States Navy first commissioned in 1955. It probably would have had a big impact on morale on all sides. I would equate this to drinking a Jaeger Bomb. ( Log Out /  A big problem is that they would have also needed to develop a vehicle to drop the payload. In this scenario, the U.S. probably battles Germany for Economic supremacy in the 20th Century instead of the Soviet Union. 46 likes. The Russians mobilized and appeared on the eastern front much quicker than they anticipated. Apparently, the B-29 project cost more to develop than the Manhattan Project. The British and the Americans may have been open to peace negotiations with the new Nazi government. The primary goal was “To impose upon Russia the will of the United States and the British Empire. Follow drfarls on Twitter. A final option would have been V2 rockets, but they were notorious for exploding on launch and if there is one thing you don’t want to explode on launch, it is an atomic weapon. Through intense naval battles the Germans realize it is better to use an atomic bomb against us than keep fighting. But by 1944, the Soviets were pushing back and it seemed inevitable that they would defeat Germany, so they had no reason to negotiate peace. This is cheating a little bit, but bear with me. Seriously, is there an actual Quora desk somewhere in the Kremlin basement solely dedicated to trolling Britons and Americans on to each other's throats? At the time, U.S. forces were still recovering in the Pacific. The Nazis mainly signed the Tripartite Pact with Japan in September 1940 as a way to dissuade the Americans from joining the Allies. One of the reasons that the Americans dropped the bombs on Japan was to show off their might to the Soviets. Britain was running out of manpower and a defeat on the beaches of Normandy would have been devastating, while it would have invigorated the Nazis, who were confident that they were going to be able to hold off the Allies. So D-day is often considered the beginning of the end of World War II. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Apparently, Hitler was so convinced of German military superiority that he didn’t care about fighting on two fronts or fighting in Russia during the winter – you know, the two biggest no-no’s about fighting the Russians. By The_Big_Red_1, October 1, 2014 in General Game Discussion He wanted the Americans to drop atomic bombs on Moscow and possibly Kiev. Much feared by military aircrew, flak blew thousands of aeroplanes from the sky across the 20th century. World War II is filled with historical 'what-ifs.'. Planning for Operation Overlord, which was the code name for the invasion of Normandy, started in January 1944, and General Dwight Eisenhower was put in charge. How many people live as a result? Another possible outcome would have been that the Nazis would have rather been occupied by Anglo-Americans than the Soviets. However, most of history says that the Nazis were most of the way beaten by the time of the Normandy invasion, the defeat at Stalingrad being the mortal blow. But, at one point or another in our lives, we have probably all wished that we could look down those hypothetical paths that we never took. This site, under construction, proposes to list all the "Identified Flying Objects" (IFO) from the period 1936-1945. Of all the stupid things Hitler did, and he had quite a few strategic errors, this is by far the dumbest. Instead, Franco ended up leading the country until his death on November 20, 1975, and then Spain adopted democracy. A whole genre of books deals with WW2 and what might have happened if key moments had gone differently, vital players in our universe had been indisposed or absent, or if vital decisions had gone the other way. We surrender. Next. Yet, they never were able to capture Moscow. The Germans almost accomplished this and it took a lot of things going wrong to end up in a stalemate in 1914. The early stages of Operation Barbarossa went well for the Germans. If they were to join the war, they would most likely have been an Axis power because during the Spanish Civil War, the victor, fascist dictator General Francisco Franco and his Nationalist party were financially supported by the Nazis and Italy. Hitler just thought the strike was coming across at the Port of Calais at the narrowest point of the English Channel. Take a second to support Toptenz.net on Patreon! And whipping up that type of flying machine isn’t exactly easy, either. Luft 46 and what ifs Collection by Chris Hannam. 0. He may have refused, but he had enough enemies in the country and one of them probably would have assassinated him, quite possibly with help from the Allies, and then the monarchy would be restored. Beyond that, they didn’t communicate very much and they weren’t nearly as coordinated as the Allies. A quite likely scenario is that instead of dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the Americans may have bombed Moscow. This ultimately could have led to the Allies not being able to get an unconditional surrender from the Nazis and the war could have dragged on until Hitler died (either naturally or he was killed) and then peace may have been negotiated; meaning Europe would definitely not look the way it does today. After the invasion of Poland in September 1939, the Nazis started to develop their uranium project, but most historians do not think that they got far in terms of building an atomic bomb because it was a massive, expensive, and time consuming project and the Nazis were just spread too thin. What Ifs? In 1933, there were 522,000 Jewish people living in Germany and the Nazis would only have used healthy young men, so only a fraction of those 522,000 people would have been eligible to fight in battle. They probably wouldn’t have been able to push the Red Army back – they may not have even made it there in time – but if they did there is a slim possibility they may have avoided unconditional surrender. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Once he was dead, their plan was to negotiate peace with the Allies. What if the Holocaust had never happened? In the end, if Germany developed the bomb first, this may have led to atomic bombs being dropped in Europe and the USSR, and possibly Japan if they didn’t surrender. 5 Stories That Prove Everyone Gets WW2 Wrong. Here are the most significant what ifs of WWII per side. Churchill Immediately Starts World War III. The big problem facing the Anglo-American forces was the Soviets outnumbered them 3-to-1. According to many historians and military experts, it probably would have been disastrous for the Allies. Facebook. Observation ability ; Crew layout ; Quality of sight optics; Gun Quality . We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. When it came to being allies, Germany and Japan didn’t have the strongest relationship. History & What-ifs; Art & Culture; Uncategorized; Video; March 25, 2021 Flak: myth versus reality with Donald Nijboer. Need some inspiration for an alternate history scenario? Probably not, because it wasn’t like Hitler would have been happy with what he already conquered. The U.S. does not have nuclear capability. The great ‘what ifs’ of September 3, 1939. He may have chosen to invade Britain, instead of just bombing them. They received resistance from the Belgians in their advance toward France. From early on, Hitler was seen as 'the bad guy'. What is Flak? According to the periodical The National Interest, it may not have made too much of a difference. Roosevelt took a gamble in setting up an ambush. Five months later, the Americans dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan. Of course, none of that happened. Kindle Edition. The city burned and 104,500 people were killed, whereas only 80,000 people died when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima (40,000 people were killed in Nagasaki). Although President Roosevelt did say in January 1943 that he would only take an unconditional surrender from the Nazis. What If World War I … What if Hitler listens to Rommel and his other generals and puts more troops and supplies at Normandy? The Allies would then recapture Gibraltar and invade Spanish territory. What if the Nazis never break the alliance with Russia? By late August 1944, the Allies had liberated most of Northern France. Many events have greatly altered the outcome of WW2. WW2 IFS abbreviation meaning defined here. 1. Need a point in time for your alternate timeline to diverge? Dennis Showalter, a military historian, thinks that Eisenhower would have resigned and President Roosevelt probably would not have been re-elected in November 1944. The video series explores the key events and figures of the past century and the unknown social, political, ecclesiastical, cultural, even conspiratorial forces that have made America what it is today. So it wasn’t that Roosevelt was opposed to the death and destruction that the atomic bombs would have caused, and the Manhattan Project was developed under his Presidency, so let’s say it is very possible he would have used the bombs. Most historians say that the reason the Nazis failed to capture the Soviet Union’s capital was because Hitler diverted armored units to Kiev first and this caused a delay in major operations against Moscow, which gave the Soviets more time to prepare. Join in if you dare! He wasn’t exactly the most sane person to begin with, but by 1944, the Nazis had been at constant war for five years, during that time Hitler had been running a genocide campaign, while totally being surrounded by Yes Men, and he was quite possibly taking some powerful drugs. Or they could have fired them from submarines. Welcome to WWII Forums! The Germans rage through Europe conquering one country after another. For every terrible tragedy history has handed us, there is an infinitely long list of disasters that we narrowly missed. A Script Doctor Tries To Fix Godzilla Vs. Kong . Apparently, Roosevelt considered Winston Churchill and Britain to be the bigger problem. Well, at least the Cold War wouldn’t have happened. On June 6, 1944, 156,000 American, British, and Canadian men invaded the beaches of Normandy, France – the largest amphibious assault in history. Would it have mattered if Moscow was captured? 20 million? Continue Reading Below. The Biggest “What Ifs” of World War II. Well unless it breaks down another way. This was actually the “Plan B” of Churchill’s Operation Unthinkable. So they could have withdrawn their troops from France, allowing the Anglo-Americans to advance on Berlin faster and it would give the Nazis more troops to fend off the advancing Red Army. “The Garden of Forking Paths” is a metaphor for how reality works for humans. Franklin Roosevelt was elected for his third term as President in 1940 and he won a re-election in November 1944. However, one of the most fascinating 'what ifs' is the legitimacy (or lack of it) of Hitler's actions. The Soviets had 18 divisions of troops stationed in Siberia in preparation for an attack from the Japanese. When we come to a fork in the road, we can only take one path. Or he may have given more support to the German Afrika Korps and expanded Nazi territory over North Africa and into the Middle East. Would this have changed the outcome? But by the time atomic bombs were developed, the Allies had strong anti-submarine technology, so they weren’t exactly the best carrier for something like an atomic bomb. 132 Pins • 496 followers. This resulted in the Battle of Berlin in the spring 1945, which was a decisive victory for the Soviets, and signaled the end of Nazi Germany. This would have left the Nazis with three different options for delivering atomic bombs. ( Log Out /  After the fall of Berlin, Winston Churchill saw an opportunity for the Allies to take down the USSR. 15 Bonkers Retcons That We Refuse To Ignore Any Longer. Would life be better, worse, or the same? Even still, if Hitler would have not fixated on Stalingrad and instead marched on Moscow they could have won there too. But what if Hitler had a platform that supported German nationalism without scapegoating the Jews, and he enlisted or conscripted Jewish men to fight in the war? Now, going back to Britain and America, if they did agree to peace, the Nazis could have moved their forces from the western front to the eastern front. Privacy Policy | TopTenz T-Shirts | Sponsors. If just two of those things don’t happen, maybe the Germans overwhelm the French, beat back the Russians and both France and Russia surrender. It would essentially become a war of attrition and the loser would be whoever couldn’t carry on anymore. In practical terms there are four major factors and three minor factors involved. Patton was camped at Dover with battalion of rubber tanks purposefully to trick the Germans. Here are ten shocking ways the Second World War could have unfolded differently than it did. 4.0 out of 5 stars 44. All of that can wreak havoc on someone’s psyche and there were high-ranking members of the Nazi party who saw that Hitler wasn’t mentally fit. Lehrer’s news team wanted to know if … Grimsley says that the most likely outcome is that Germans would have traveled through Spain and then invaded Gibraltar, which is British territory on the north coast of Spain. Biographics – History, One Life at a Time. By The_Big_Red_1, October 1, 2014 in General Game Discussion Possibly. Eighty years ago today, World War II began. You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section. Probably not, according to HistoryNet. Listed in rough chronological order. What was interesting is that when the Nazis invaded the USSR, it might have paid off to be nicer. Top 10 Shockingly Rich Celebrities & Their Net Worth. Of all the what ifs listed, only if this last what if proved true would the world be a better place. As a result, Spain would be taken quite easily and the Allies would demand an unconditional surrender. D-Day is an amazing accomplishment, something that makes me proud to be an American. D-Day was one of the most pivotal events of World War II. However, in this book, all paths are shown simultaneously. Ah, let the Yank bashing begin. If the Soviets didn’t surrender, the ground war would continue and the Allies would have a difficult time fighting against so many more enemies. The Americans used converted Boeing B-29 Superfortresses, and the Germans didn’t have a bomber that was that heavy duty. Also, if the Nazis took Moscow, it might have only been temporary. According to the History Channel, the U.S. intercepted a message stating that the Japanese were headed to Midway. Another problem is that the Nazis wouldn’t have been able to produce fissionable material quickly enough for atomic weapons to be effective. Each are portrayed with the fundamental appearance of perfectly circular heads, theatrically placed black dotted eyes, atop modified-oblong torsos and lacking all appendages south of their neck-less frames. Yesterday was the 70 th Anniversary of D-Day. Peace with the Nazis would also have given the Americans more time and resources to focus their attention on Japan. What if Hitler had pushed for Moscow and … These fresh troops, who were well-equipped to wage war during the harsh Soviet winters, may have taken back the city from the Nazis, who would have been worn out from capturing the city and not as prepared to deal with the elements. The first is that they could have developed small atomic bombs and then dropped them from Heinkel He 177 planes. So what would have happened if Churchill decided to turn on the Soviets at the very end of the war? On July 20, 1944, at the “Wolfsschanze” (“Wolf’s Lair”) command post near which was Rastenburg, East Prussia (present-day Poland), Lieutenant Colonel Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg, chief of staff of the reserve army, planted a bomb in a suitcase near Hitler. https://www.spectator.com.au/2019/09/the-great-what-ifs-of-september-3-1939 On September 1, Germany invaded Poland from the west, the north and the south. Author Gavriel D. Rosenfeld. Once Spain joined the war, they probably would have wanted to invade Portugal, but they would have needed a lot of military and financial support from the Nazis, who were busy waging their own wars. Churchill’s attitude was imperialist and colonialist and he’d be the roadblock to the alliance. At that point, their scientists have created several atomic bombs. A nuclear strike on their capital would have certainly thrown the Soviets off balance, to say the least. Franklin Roosevelt was elected for his third term as President in 1940 and he won a re-election in November 1944. by Robert Farley. $6.99. The Nazi Party is the epitome of evil. in WW2. Permalink. WW2 what-ifs, alternate history and horrors . Von Stauffenberg was arrested and executed the next day. Or would turning their capital into a radioactive wasteland anger them and make their much larger army crueler to both Anglo-American forces and citizens? Recommended For Your Pleasure. Stalin was a pretty ruthless ruler and it’s doubtful that he would have surrendered under any circumstances. Does World War II happen in that scenario? Stalin wasn’t exactly the most easy going guy in the world and they had suffered massive losses when the Nazis invaded them; 800,000 Soviets were killed and 6 million soldiers had been captured by the Nazis. In his new counterfactual history, Jeffrey S. Gurock shows how WWII had positive consequences for the Jews… of America So if the Nazis didn’t invade USSR, they would have probably just invaded a different country (or countries) and kept expanding until they ran out of resources or Hitler was killed. So it sounds at least plausible that the Anglo-Americans would have at least heard the terms of peace from the Nazis. But what if they had just been a little bit nicer? The Austro-Hungarians could not hold back the Serbs. As the war was getting closer to the end, Hitler was pretty much losing his mind. Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler, Top 10 Books of the Bible to Study as a Whole, Weird Luxury Foods from Throughout History, 10 Unexpected Discoveries from Royal Tombs, 10 More of the Most Terrifying Places in the Known Universe, Top 10 Mental Disorders Of Cartoon Characters, What are the Best & Most Famous Palindromes, What Are the Most Important Inventions of the 20th Century. Costigliola says that Roosevelt wanted to have an alliance where the United States, Britain, and Russia essentially worked as the police of the world. In 1941, Hitler was both unhinged and cocky. Within a few weeks, they had conquered 40 percent of the Soviets’ land and a lot of its coal, iron ore, aluminum, and armaments industries. In order to strengthen their numbers, the Anglo-American forces were going to enlist captured German soldiers, and once they recaptured Berlin, they would restart the Nazi war machine. For example, if the character in the fictional book were to flip a coin, the story would contain details about it landing on both heads and tails. The plan was to do a surprise attack and to hit them hard. Of course, there are no guarantees any those scenarios would have been successful; especially the invasion of Britain, which was called Operation Sea Lion, because the British had support from the powerful Americans. We grilled Donald Nijboer author of Flak in World War II, about the dreaded flak. What about the decision to switch the targets from the airfields to the cities by the Germans in the battle of Britain. Adolf Hitler was the Nazi party’s greatest asset, and he was also one of its biggest downfalls – especially by 1944. One of the great what-ifs of the Second World War is what would have happened if Japan had attacked the Soviet Union in 1941, when the Soviet Union seemed at … Yet, the Nazis never used the anger of Stalin’s own people against him in any tactical way. Change ). The main reason that Spain stayed non-belligerent during World War II was because they went through three years of civil war that ended just five months before the war started, so they didn’t have the military or the money to become engaged. Germany was a rising world economy before World War I. Twitter. However, Britain would be financially dependent on the Americans, so they would be forced to go along with the alliance. So the areas the Nazis conquered weren’t pro-Stalin and might have even taken up arms against him. While more soldiers is usually beneficial, it’s doubtful that it would have changed the outcome of the war. Costigliola argues that Stalin would have eventually agreed to the alliance because it would have ensured the security of Russia. Another person in the Wolf’s Lair moved the suitcase and Hitler only received minor injuries. What if the Japanese attack years later? D-Day is an amazing accomplishment, something that makes me proud to be an American. A big what if when it comes to the end of World War II is what would have happened if Roosevelt lived, at least until the end of his term? The WW2 What Ifs series. ( Log Out /  What Ifs of Jewish History from Abraham to Zionism” from Cambridge University Press. Spider-Man's Iconic Catchphrase Came From ... Superman? Hitler said, “We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.” Of course, it didn’t exactly go that way, and after massive initial losses, the Red Army pushed back and it was part of the downfall of Nazi Germany. Biographics – History, One Life at a Time. They drop two bombs, one each on Boston and Philadelphia, and say they have two more they’re going to use on Washington D.C. and New York. British General Sir Richard Dannatt said to gather up that many men, vehicles, and weapons again would have taken years. Tagged atomic bombs, D Day, Dan Carlin, Erwin Rommel, Franklin Deleanor Roosevelt, Germans, history channel, Hitler, japanese, joseph stalin, midway, Nazis, pearl harbor, russians, World War II. The History Channel was adamant that the Japanese were going to do it sooner or later. The Red Army may have been caught off guard, but eventually they would push back. Five months later, the Americans dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan. Neighboring Italy probably wouldn’t help either, because they would be busy preparing their own defenses for the impending Allies invasion. The Unknown History of the 20th Century. Get the top IFS abbreviation related to WW2. They were the better-equipped and trained army. When he left the room, the bomb detonated. It’s important to note that Roosevelt and Churchill had only discussed the idea of unconditional surrender, but they hadn’t agreed to address that publicly. IFS - Motomaxx Premium Finance Contract generator page. What if Hitler successfully invaded Russia? 5 Insane 'What If' Scenarios That Almost Changed Everything. Since the Japanese weren’t going to attack and Moscow was captured, they would probably send the troops to Moscow. https://www.manxgamingsolutions.com/wargaming-what-ifs.html The biggest difference between our reality and this other speculative history is what would have happened after the war. WW2 What if's. How many more people are killed in concentration camps in that scenario? Planes, Camouflages and Markings of World Aviation 1 936-1945. CoD 2021 May Take Place in an Alternate Timeline Where World War II Never Ended ... or inspired by current political and economical tensions with a dash of "what ifs" added into the mix. Without the German scientists that were available to the U.S. after VE-Day. Of American History: Eminent Historians Imagine What Might Have Been (What If Essays) Robert Cowley. It would not be a given the U.S. would succeed. To old favourites like “What if America’s carriers had been present at Pearl Harbour on December 7, 1941?”, “What if Goering had kept pounding British airfields in September, 1940 rather than switching to cities?” and “What if Vera Lynn hadn’t slain that cyborg assassin sent to kill Churchill?” I’d like to add “What if Hitler had been an avid … Yesterday was the 70th Anniversary of D-Day. What if Hitler had not invaded Russia? Churchill, who couldn’t defeat the Nazis, wanted to take on the army that defeated the Nazis. Operation Barbarossa was launched on June 22, 1941, and it ultimately didn’t go well for the Nazis. When the Nazis advanced, the Soviet citizens fled their villages, they destroyed important buildings, drove away livestock, and burned crops so the Nazis couldn’t use them. IFS : (INDIAN FORGOTTEN SOLDIERS)This epic series is inspired by true history and real events with some fictional dramatization with seven episodes. It would have been bolstered in victory. Hitler was a product of World War I and the shame thrust upon the Germans in defeat. For the British, it probably would have weakened morale further than it already was. What if FDR hadn't insisted on unconditional surrender terms for Germany and Japan? What if the Japanese don’t bomb Pearl Harbor? Here’s a list of 50 questions to excite your imagination, invalidate your history textbooks, and infuriate your stuffy childhood history teacher. They thought that Hitler was leading Germany into two suicide missions – the war on the western front against the British and Americans and the eastern front against the Soviets. If the Nazis didn’t attack the Soviet Union, would they have won the war? There was considerable worry that we’d be fighting off a Japanese invasion on the west coast. So what better way to really scare them than by dropping their secret weapon on the Soviet capital? If the Nazis were successful in taking over Gibraltar, it wouldn’t have changed the direction of the war, at first. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Does the U.S. wait to engage in Europe as well? If they were able to hit either of them, it may have helped as a short term solution. Block or Report. Also, if Germany, Japan, and Italy had collaborated more on science projects, like the Allies did with the Manhattan Project, they may have made greater advancements in military sciences to create better and more destructive weapons. He ordered plans to be drawn up for a land invasion to fight back the Soviets from territory they occupied as they invaded Nazi-captured land. Hitler and Stalin had agreed to not fight one another. What does IFS stand for in Military? These were on the German drawing boards. When the Nazis rolled into the USSR, they continued to fight the war like they always did, and that was a war of annihilation. But Hitler didn’t die. READ ALL BEFORE ANSWERING I've seen many what ifs like this and people almost always say the Soviets would've won the war by themselves, but they always seem to forget about the Japanese Empire. She was named after the carronade, a type of short barreled cannon.. As an Inshore Fire Support Ship (IFS), part of the so-called "brown-water navy", Carronade was designed under project SCB 37 and built to provide direct naval gunfire support to amphibious landings or operations close to shore. What does IFS stand for in WW2? Also, the Germans would not have been able to strike the United States, who were, of course, working on the Manhattan Project. The WW2 What Ifs series. As for how it may have changed the outcome of the war, it would have slowed down the Allies on the Western front, and the Americans may have even chosen to take a defensive stance in Europe and focus on Japan, allowing the Red Army to conquer Germany. If the Germans weren’t massively weakened by enormous losses on the Eastern front, including the loss of resources, they probably could have repelled a U.S. attack. If the Nazis and the Japanese did communicate, the Nazis may have discouraged Japan’s plans to attack Pearl Harbor and instead they could have performed a joint attack on the USSR. Part of the deal would be that Franco had to resign. Join in if you dare! It’s not like the Germans were completely unaware or a potential invasion at Normandy. When Nazis invaded the USSR in June 1941, they would have pulled troops from Gibraltar and Spain to fight on that front. The U.S. steps in to intervene and the Germans engage us like we did the Japanese. On the flip side of this alt-history coin, we also seriously … The new Nazi government saw the World he was dead, their scientists have several! Fuhrer about the British Empire of Stalin ’ s doubtful that he would have rather been occupied by than! 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